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Post by stanley550 on Mar 22, 2014 0:12:14 GMT
Wanted to start this section as more of a blog. Anybody is welcome to comment and add to it, but the initial idea is for me to just jot down my discoveries and thoughts as I learn new things, riding Gymkhana. These will change and evolve as I learn, so don't get surprised if I'm contradicting myself from time to time. I guess to understand what works and what doesn't, the simplest way is to keep track of my times on a few obstacles. This way if the times are dropping, then I'm improving and concepts and theories are working.
I think I will stick to the following format.
Obstacle: GP8
Average times: 38 seconds
Best time: 36 seconds
Pace: Leisurely - moderate.
Obstacle will be the obstacle I was practicing that day.
Average time is what it is, so is the "best time".
Pace is just how it felt for me going around the course. This comes from my idea of learning proper technique with speed coming as a result from it. If I feel I'm overdriving the bike, then there might be too much drama without enough results. This might mean that my technique is falling behind, and I'm trying to compensate with throttle.
If it feels in control and speed is good and times are dropping then I'm on the right track.
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Post by stanley550 on Mar 22, 2014 0:49:52 GMT
Following post might be a bit jumbled and without proper structure, I'm just trying to quickly jot down my ideas after a practice session, so treat it as notes for myself. Hope you can pick something out of it for yourself.
GP8
average: 38
best: 36
Leisurely - moderate
Ok so today's "aha" moment was something that I already experienced and sort of figured out before, but its not something that I actively practice.
Bike turns from the lean angle, simple as that. At full lock, you have two controls left speed and lean angle.
Let the bike turn how it wants to turn. This means to relax hands completely and let the bars lock to the side. Bars lock only if you have enough lean. Bars will "wonder" a little bit, if the bike is too upright. At proper lean, the bars will be rock solid. Keep hands relaxed with NO INPUT on the handle bars. Yes, that is right, you are not turning the bike with handle bars anymore, all control comes from your hips and knees, by leaning the bike over. The only input is your throttle, keeping it RPM steady.
It is easier and faster to get to the full lock, if you brake to the "lock speed" and tip the bike over right into the full lock in one movement. It feels something like this. Upright, upright, upright, brake, brake, brake, good speed, twist bars / lean bike, get to full lock, "let go" of the bars, keep the bike leaned with knees and hips to rotate around the cone. This is the feeling I get for GP8 exercise.
Again, as the bike is leaned over, relax your hands, and do NOT put any input into the bars. The bike will turn by itself, due to its geometry. This is very important! Practice just riding in circles, to get that feeling where you can fully relax your hands and if you could lock the throttle, take them off the bars completely, and just keep the bike leaning with your hips and knees.
Set up 18 foot circle to practice this. "Circle of trust" with 24 foot radius is too big, it gives too much room for error. 18 foot circle will let you feel the proper lean angle of the bike for the full lock.
Do NOT counter lean. This is something I used to go back and forth on, but after today's session I think its counter productive to counter lean.
I practiced both and here are my findings.
Counter leaning, keeps the bike at somewhat "neutral" position, even if its leaned over. When I say neutral, it means that the bike is not "falling into" the turn. Yes its leaned over, but it is still balanced by your offset COG. This will make the bars "wonder". If you shift your weight slightly to the inside of the turn, this will make the bike "fall into" the turn, locking the bars. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!
This means that the bars will "wonder" and you will not get that solid feel of locked into the turn (metal to metal). This is very frustrating as well as counter productive. Your bike will feel like its going too fast, you will be leaning it over and slowing it down with your brake to make the turn, but you won't. I had moments where I was barely moving with a very deep lean, and the bike still didn't make the turn properly.
Shift your weight into the turn. Doesn't mean you have to hang off the bike or put the knee out. Just move your own center of mass slightly off the center of the bike and into the turn. This will lean the bike and keep it there. This will also give you that metal to metal lock in feeling at the bars, and the swooping feeling of the turn. It feels like a dive in an airplane, you keep falling into the turn, but the bike keeps catching itself, very hard to explain but once you feel it, you'll know what to look for.
So to recap, drop to the speed at which you can quickly tip the bike into the lean angle that gives you full lock position at the bars. Move your cog to the inside of the turn, to keep the bike turning. NO INPUT at the bars, and keep the bike turning by leaning it. Doing this, you won't have to brake as much, and the turning rate will be pretty fast.
Looking into the center point of your turn, helps me to keep the turn fast and tight. This is NOT looking where I want to go, this is actively looking at the center point.
The following section is just my personal mental picture. It might sound ridiculous so some, but its just a mental exercise that helps me to get on the right track. This is very subjective so experiment for yourself.
Imagine a drafting compass, that thing you use to draw circles. It has two legs, one leg has a point that stays stationary on the paper, and the second leg has the pencil and it rotates around the other, pointy leg.
So this idea greatly helps me. I imagine that I and my bike are the leg with the pencil. I concentrate on the center of the turn and imagine that I'm leaning onto it, leaning on the imaginary leg with the pointy end. This puts my brain in the right state, where it helps greatly to lean the bike a proper amount for that turn. It also helps greatly to get the knee down like that. Its even easier with the knee, as I actually imagine my slider to be the pointy end of the compass and the bike is the pencil side. Works every time.
So again, lean angle is the king! I used to think that getting to the full lock was more important, but its not! Full lock is a RESULT of the lean angle and speed. Get to the proper speed for full lock, shift your weight slightly to the inside, turn the bars and lean the bike. After the bike is leaned over, "let go" of the bars, so there is NO input on them other than a throttle. Keep the bike rotating by LEANING it with hips and knees, NOT at the bars!
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Post by stanley550 on Mar 22, 2014 1:00:59 GMT
Technique before speed!
This is just a mental note for myself, to keep technique clean. Having lap timer on the tank of the bike, I want to start shaving those seconds, and unfortunately most of the time the technique goes down the drain as the result. I start overdriving my bike, creating too much drama without any results for it. Too much lean angle, too much speed, to much rear slip, hot brakes and cracked disks...
Do not overdrive the bike! Slow down once you catch yourself slipping at the technique. Push occasionally to find the limit/edge, but then come back to slower times but consistency. Pretty simple. Train to stay consistent, not fast.
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Post by stanley550 on Mar 22, 2014 1:14:08 GMT
Knee down. Same as above, lean angle is the king. Counter steering is just a process to get to the correct lean angle. Again, this is just my personal thought process. Treat this as my thought fart, if it works for you, great! If you have your own technique, just ignore this section. Shift over, knee out, rotate foot, heel to the guard. Look at the center point of the turn, lean on the knee as if its the leg of a compass. RELAX arms on the bars. At this stage the inputs to the bars are so minute that they are most likely processed by spinal cord, rather than conscious thinking process, leave your prehistoric brain to deal with the reactions. Concentrate on the center point, and that your knee is the pointy end of the compass, around which you are rotating. Feel the bike. VERY IMPORTANT, do not lose power as it turns in. Rear will fee light and will easily wash out. Increase throttle if needed to keep the feeling in the rear of the bike tight. Rotate till dizzy  Swing over, do on opposite side Again, the point of this, is to keep hands very light without conscious inputs on the bars, and concentrating on the lean and turn rate of the bike. |
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Post by Yamaha_RN on Mar 22, 2014 21:32:50 GMT
Knee down. Same as above, lean angle is the king. Counter steering is just a process to get to the correct lean angle. Again, this is just my personal thought process. Treat this as my thought fart, if it works for you, great! If you have your own technique, just ignore this section. Shift over, knee out, rotate foot, heel to the guard. Look at the center point of the turn, lean on the knee as if its the leg of a compass. RELAX arms on the bars. At this stage the inputs to the bars are so minute that they are most likely processed by spinal cord, rather than conscious thinking process, leave your prehistoric brain to deal with the reactions. Concentrate on the center point, and that your knee is the pointy end of the compass, around which you are rotating. Feel the bike. VERY IMPORTANT, do not lose power as it turns in. Rear will fee light and will easily wash out. Increase throttle if needed to keep the feeling in the rear of the bike tight. Rotate till dizzy Swing over, do on opposite side Again, the point of this, is to keep hands very light without conscious inputs on the bars, and concentrating on the lean and turn rate of the bike. I try to do this, but everything they taught me at Utah is to decrease lean angle lol. Need another class to pick up the pace to need the extra degrees. |
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Post by stanley550 on Mar 22, 2014 23:02:51 GMT
Well yeah, but you still need to lean the bike to get the knee down  |
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Post by Jezza on Mar 25, 2014 12:00:42 GMT
I haven't put in any serious work on a GP8 quick time yet, but in the spirit of thought fart! This is just me thinking out loud I pretty much agree with all stanley550 says, but here is something else to consider. Be careful trying this, as it may be harmful to you and your bikes health!!!  This is going to be more difficult on a big 1 liter bike, but I believe the line of the corner should not be a constant radius, but a tightening spiral! So come in fast and wide and exit slow and tight. That means touching full lock a little later and speed decreasing most of the way in. You will enter the turn at your top speed and start braking in a straight line and continue braking as you bank over. I use both brakes, but about 80% front, if I use too much back brake it skids the back out, if I use too much front, I either lift the rear wheel (on the SuperMoto) or lock up the front end, either way it will ruin you turn and possibly your whole day! I ease off the front brake as late as possible but carry some rear brake to a late apex. Now aim to tighten the turn and get as close as you dare to the cone as you exit the corner, while sitting the bike up and getting on the gas as soon as possible. Duncan brought to my attention that normal counter steering out of the corner while on full lock is not possible, but hitting the gas will sit the bike up allowing you to release some steering input and get you back into counter steering your way to the next cone. The guy at 1:25 shows this well |
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eek
New Member
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Post by eek on Mar 31, 2014 9:05:37 GMT
Good post Jezza. The Japanse 26 sec. guys really throw there bike into the corner, and 'get out slow'. Something I'm working on right now. Takes some time to get your brain used to getting som much lean, so quick.
My average GP8 is 30 sec, best 2013 was 28:80. Going for sub 28 this year :-)
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Post by stanley550 on Apr 1, 2014 5:32:54 GMT
Hey eek, quick question. When you are in the turn for GP8, do you completely close the throttle and rely on higher idle RPM to coast you through, or do you still keep the throttle slightly open?
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eek
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by eek on Apr 1, 2014 10:16:23 GMT
I close the throttle almost completely [to avoid slack], BUT my idle RPM [in neutral] is 4.800 - And I don't coast, the speed is controlled by the rear brake.
NOTE: This high RPM only with shorter secondary gear ratio [14-52 instead of 16-42]
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Post by stanley550 on Apr 1, 2014 21:01:43 GMT
Got it. My bike doesn't have idle speed adjustment so I can not increase it. I do have to rely on keeping the throttle open somewhat, and dragging rear brake to control the speed. Seems its pretty much the same, without convenience of higher idle.
I also wanted to ask about your approach to the cone. Is it similar to what Jezza is describing? As you get to the cone, do you brake fully and tip the bike over into a full lock and rotate around the cone from there? Or do you carry some speed into the turn, and brake while turning, and getting to a full lock somewhere in the middle of the turn around the cone?
I was practicing today, trying to immediately get to the full lock as soon as I'm turning. The turn radius by doing this, is very tight, but I have to brake heavily before the cone.
When trying to carry some speed into the the turn, I can brake a little bit later, but I get to the full lock only in the middle of the turn, which makes it a little bit wider.
My times are rubbish either way, so I have no idea which approach yields better results in a long run.
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Swing over, do on opposite side 
